> much less protections in terms of well-being (no federal minimum wage, absurd work hours as standard, etc)
There absolutely is minimal wage but is set by local governments, because different places have different cost of living.
There are better protections for work hours for salaried workers than America. Anything above 40 hours get paid at 1.5X and anything above 60 hours get paid at 2x.
For layoffs in China, you have to pay N+1 of months of salary in terms of severance. N being the number of years an employee has been there.
And talking about absurd work hours, SK and Japan aren't better than China.
So China overall has far better labor rights protection than the U.S.
>talking about absurd work hours, SK and Japan aren't better than China.
On paper, no. Japan has overtime bonuses too, but you're culturally discouraged from reporting overtime. So 12 hour days are common with no OT. And thats not including "optional" after work outings.
Yet, it's also not uncommon for Japan to bring about the "appearance" of working more than really working. Whether you judge that appearance of work as more or less stressful than China's work standards is a more personal question.
Either way, my main comparison was Asia to the US rather than countries within Asia. US has higher salaries, better minumum wage (but still nowhere near good), and usually better hours. But stability without unions is non-existent as we've seen the past decades.
If you were ever trapped on the top floor of a burning building, should we just send a car up there?
Nobody is surprised by advancement like this, but there is still a lot of engineering that went into it, not talking about how it’s now almost consumer grade tech that you can buy.
> If you were ever trapped on the top floor of a burning building, should we just send a car up there?
Riddle me this then: what role does a robot that has been built to run real fast play in that scenario?
Sure, a good deal of engineering went into this, but the hard part - solving bipedal locomotion - had been done long before that. Apart from showing off it's not really advancing the field and so there's not too much left to be impressed by (honestly, the battery and actuator efficiency that allowed the thing to do a half marathon was MUCH more impressive, at least to me). It seems to me to be more analogous to car tuning.
The thing has no real arms, hands or carry capacity, so what would be the point?
Running up the stairs is the easy part after all. The difficult part in such scenario is lack of orientation due to smoke, obstacles like locked doors or fallen debris, unstable walls and ceilings, locating people and getting them out safely. All of those things require a good amount of autonomy, on-the-spot physical problem solving and judgement.
To this effect, the recent DARPA Triage Challenge, which has its final taking place in November this year, seems like a much more thorough and practical demonstration of current capabilities. Something to look forward to if you're interested in the current state-of-the-art w.r.t. real-world applications of robotics.
No it absolutely is not. In a perfectly logical frictioness-plane world it might be true, but this is the real world. The entire premise of open models is predicated on the fact that Meta is planning on supplying free and equitable inference and services around it. It’s only true if you assume Meta keeps their end of the deal and doesn’t do the thing they’ve been doing over and over and over for decades and turning you into the product
Its perfectly valid to question the intent though. Yes, open models are great. Why does Meta prefer that? Because they lost the race to the top, so they'd rather level the playing field by eliminating the game entirely.
The idea that we can possibly ignore the fact that this push for opening AI models is being pushed by one of the richest people on the planet, who made his wealth by providing free services in exchange for attention and depression, is insane
That doesn’t make sense. It’s not like SOTA models are error free, yet we still use them.
You use Fable 5 right? If that’s good enough for you now, why wouldn’t a Chinese model that’s as good as Fable 5 but at 10% the cost be good enough in 6 months?
I think we put up with Fable's occasional hiccups because there's nothing better at the moment.
I use Claude Code semi-heavily for my small business, and the $100/mo I pay for that is a rounding error compared to the value it provides.
If I can avoid spending an hour or two "massaging" the output from a lower-end model once, or it avoids introducing one load-bearing (sorry, couldn't resist) bug, then that's the entire $100 right there.
Hell, you could argue that the best "coding model" that we have at the moment is the human brain, and people will gladly pay $10,000/mo for one of them.
Arguing over $20 vs $100 for something that actually puts in work just seems insane to me.
> I think we put up with Fable's occasional hiccups because there's nothing better at the moment.
Which was an argument for using every less powerful model since the moment they got useful, right?
When was that? Opus 4.5 maybe? Let's say Opus 4.5 for the sake of the argument. So back then we were like "DeepSeek is not good enough, I need Opus 4.5". Now DeepSeek is better than Opus 4.5. So if Opus 4.5 was good enough back then, DeepSeek is better than that now.
Sure, it's always nicer to have a slightly better model. But the price difference starts mattering a lot more when all the models are already sufficiently good.
To put actual numbers on it, since using AI to start solving all kinds of bottlenecks/inefficiencies in our small business, we've seen monthly net profit go up by around $4,000 USD. These are semi-permanent fixes, and the tech is only partially deployed. I am the only one using it, and I only use it part time.
We've just spun up our first Hermes agent, with direct API access to our main inventory system and that's expected to find another few grand per month in misallocation/inefficiency.
I wouldn't be surprised if we were doing more like $10k/mo higher in 6-9 months' time.
When you're talking about numbers like this, the fact that one AI is $100/mo and another is $10/mo or $40/mo doesn't matter. They could make GLM-5.2, or any other Opus 4.5-class model free and it still wouldn't make sense to deploy in a commercial context.
The other angle I'd approach things from is that Opus 4.5 (and I'd agree with you that that model was the saddle point) was "good enough" for the types of things we were asking it to do back then, but as the models have become more capable the tasks we're asking them to do have also expanded with it.
I know I've personally gone from "hey can fix this race condition with a Redis mutex" 6 months ago to "Independently redesign this full embedded USB stack and QA it end-to-end, working around a specific Kernel bug in macOS Tahoe that requires decompilation to find the source of, while keeping in mind the constraints of our 8-bit AVR chip from 2011" now.
But that said, yes, maybe in 5 years' time we will reach an "intelligence saturation" where the average person won't be able to even conceive of how to use the new SOTA.
I think we're even starting to reach that saturation point now for a lot of people. In my industry (law) plenty of people have tried CoPilot once or twice, or tried ChatGPT a year ago, and as a result have basically dismissed AI as being useless. The setup required to be able to get it to do end to end tasks to your liking is also substantially more work than most people are willing to put in.
I think HN doesn't really understand fixed costs, I spend a few hundred dollars per day on Fable and the costs are irrelevant compared to what we make.
We are obviously limiting access to be read-only for anything customer-facing (it will be able to put recommendations in the dashboard but not actually change things directly) but I think the point of GP's comment was literally just to get a reaction.
No, the point is that with human in the loop the downside is (usually!) rather limited, as common sense would stop obvious fuckups (ok, not always, but still).
With an agent (especially incompetently employed), the danger of unwittingly destroying your company (or at least, the crucial data/reputation) is rather higher. We are notoriously bad at estimating the downside risks in complex systems.
The most obvious case is the downside risks in complex financial constructs... things look great for a while ... until a sudden surprising collapse arrives and totally destroys all the upside you think you have created.
There is a tradeoff to be considered between the utility gained from using the stuff, minus the risk severity/likelihood, plus available mitigations. As someone else posted, none of us are in a position to make that balanced post because we don't know if the guy has an airgapped backup or not etc.
In any case, GP's post was not such a balanced consideration; it was just parroting a beloved risk-aversion meme that can easily be deployed against building anything (what if the building falls on top of someone?) or even leaving home to go to work ("travelling in a hunk of steel at lethal speeds – let me assure you that absolutely nothing can go wrong here, mate.")
What I find tiresome about that meme is the presumption that "something can go wrong" is useful input on its own. It's not. Mistakes are made all the time, the only way to avoid that is to stop breathing. Even in the process of me standing up and going to the loo, something can go wrong.
If the guy wants to make a case that it's too dangerous for the expected benefits, he has to actually make that case. Saying "risk exists" with no elaboration is a waste of HTML. "something can go wrong" every time he swallows food, yet mysteriously he still does it.
(the suicide analogies may seem mean-spirited, but I kind of mean it. If you consider every action primarily from a standpoint of "what harm or irreversible change can result from this", the only permissible path is to do nothing. To be moral is to be as close as possible to a rock or another inanimate object.)
The question low cost models will create: Why would you massage output?
Fable 5 is still going to mess things up at any sufficient complexity. The advantage of low cost models with "good enough" intelligence is they can recursively correct. Why? Because it is cheap. Proper requirements and tests and subagents take away increasing amounts of work, at a cost that is not prohibitive.
If you are reviewing code manually you might consider Fable 5 a worse option. As it articulates itself with higher confidence and you already know it is capable, you are may be more likely to miss a mistake. You know to be on guard with a junior engineer. Reviewing a senior who suddenly makes some weird stochastic mistake can be a lot harder. It would be like if the smartest human engineer you knew was capable of some random brainfart in the middle of their massive diff. Imo, much harder to deal with.
Of course, we should keep in mind Fable 5 is only expensive today. It will be cheaper in the future. Autonomous, recursive prompting and improvement is the clear end state. Especially for entities that will always have the budget for that at the SOTA frontier.
It's far from significant, it's partially doubled during peak hours. They could 16x it and it would still be two orders of magnitude better value than OAI's $200/mo plan.
It's that good. They are far from capacity limited, and even if they were, you can rent a single MI300X from somewhere like Hot Aisle and get more tk/s than you'll be able to use.
How does it compare to 5.6 Luna after the permanent 80% price cut?
That one is dirt cheap at API pricing, I can't imagine quota is going to be a concern on the $200 subscription, which in my opinion easily supports full time use of 5.6 Sol on xhigh.
It's still laughable. They blew it. I'm not sure they could even pay me to use their models at this point (and I don't mean via employment, meta and its refugees are permabanned to me). My experience over the past few months with open models has me seriously entertaining moving east.
A couple of very talented friends were uttering curses upon the entire bloodline of whoever convinced them to try letting sol xhigh do serious work. Deepseek cleaned it up for a fraction of $20.
> Didn’t deepseek recently announce prices will go up significantly?
They also previously said prices will go down significantly once they get a hold of the upcoming Huawei chips (later this year).
Prices are going up just because they can. It can easily come back down. They aren't strained by some IPO / VCs requiring them to 1000x their earnings.
I don’t think the industry knows how to price this stuff. Deepseek is great (I’m running it on a RTX 6000 pro setup) but it’s nothing like Fable. It’s still strongly human-in-the-loop which is fine, until you experience how good these models can be.
Think about it this way.
Let’s say you could buy an LLM that gets things right 98% of the time. But there’s another LLM that’s 100x the price but gets things right 99.9% of the time. To the lay person this sounds trivial but to a serious business this intelligence gap could represent millions, or billions of dollars.
If that’s the case businesses would be seeing millions to billions of profit gain (or cost reduction) in the past 4 months as they went from Opus 4.6 to Fable 5.
But that’s simply not the case. It’s very clear that vast majority of the business do not generate additional value from incremental intelligence gain from these models.
There is a reason why Chinese open weight models are now popular even in American enterprises, because CTOs realize that they are indeed good enough.
I work for a FAANG, and have my own personal projects for which I use the Chinese models. and the big models do indeed save/make us a lot of money.
The Chinese models are not good enough for anything other than pair programming, which is just a very last-gen way of using agents.
And when the big US models get better we will move with them. Until we stop seeing returns there is no "good enough", I don't know why this is so hard for HN to understand.
Fable has only been out for a month but somehow everyone is supposed to have moved to a completely different way of working that supposedly only works for Fable and nothing else…
This stuff is just obvious to anyone working with the latest models. Fully autonomous agents are a game changer. Having to pair program with one is indeed "last gen", I haven't done that for a month and I won't ever be doing that again in my life, outside of personal projects.
> This stuff is just obvious to anyone working with the latest models. Fully autonomous agents are a game changer.
This kind of takes makes me cringe. Why don't you go back to LinkedIn?
I have no idea what you mean by “pair program with an agent”, but Opus have been able of autonomous coding since last November, and with any half-decent harness even local Qwen3.5 was able to do so 6 months ago.
Fable is a stronger model, which means it can solve harder tasks but it's also over-hyped, because only a small fraction of task is hard enough to be Fable-worthy.
I use Kimi K3, Opus 5, and Fable on a daily basis.
Fable is the only one that reliably one shots complex changes and makes the right design choices. Everything else requires handholding.
I can let Fable loose on a 12+ hour (for AI) task and it will have performed it flawlessly when I come back the next day. K3 and Opus are not like this.
And no, our harness is not the limiting factor here.
Unless you are very cash strapped, Fable is a very nominal fixed cost compared to the benefit of what it offers (fully autonomous agents, and no longer needing to pair program with one).
And even it isn't "enough". I can very clearly see myself using more advanced agents to move up the abstraction ladder.
For businesses that have actual problems to solve, I see them investing in the frontier for a good bit longer, probably until we have AGI that can replace employees, maybe even a bit after.
This is why I find the "good enough" arguments silly. Like, the usefulness of an AI tops out to you when you can pair program with it? Seriously? You cannot envision ways in which more advanced AI enables you to do more, better? That's bizarre to me. I don't ever see myself running out of problems to solve.
I use Chinese models, even smaller local ones, for much more than pair programming. If we are talking about deepseek v4 flash, which is basically a frontier model, it is much more capable than the local models I run on my MacBook Pro. The only issue really is finding the right harness.
I do have a way of correcting through redundancy, though. If you are just vibe coding, you need to use the most capable model you can find and even then it might not be good enough.
> If you are just vibe coding, you need to use the most capable model you can find and even then it might not be good enough
I mean, this proves my point. Better models enable you to get more done. With Fable, 80% of the time, I no longer have chat with an agent over the details of a PR. I give it an outcome and it gets done. This means I can work on much more with the limited time I have.
And I don't see this ending. When better models come out that take that from 80% to 99.x%, I will have that better model manage teams of other models and move up the abstraction layer.
If models get even better than that, perhaps I stop reviewing PRs entirely. Maybe normies can start using agents to build real things.
Unless your business doesn't have many problems to solve and isn't in a competitive environment, it will benefit from using the best models.
If you don’t have a way to automatically check the results via redundancy, you need a really good model, since even 99.9% reliability is going to cause slot of headaches. If you do have a way to automatically check results, then you can use something that fits in your computer and was produced 3 years ago.
My point is you don’t need the best model if you just put in QA processes that can be done by models also. And if you don’t have that, the model is probably not going to be good enough.
> The Chinese models are not good enough for anything other than pair programming, which is just a very last-gen way of using agents.
This matches my experience with DeepSeek V4 Pro at Max reasoning, the preview version of the model kept regularly messing things up. About 30-60% of additional time to fix the output was needed.
On similar tasks, GLM 5.2 at Max reasoning screwed up maybe 20-30% of the time, while it still definitely made noticeable mistakes, they were far fewer in total and less egregious.
Kimi K3 at Max reasoning drops that value to below 10%, it's about as good as Opus or approaches Fable in some tasks. At High reasoning it also seems to be pretty close to Opus 4.8, not sure about the latest Opus model yet, but it's up there.
Only problem is that K3 is nowhere near as cheap as DeepSeek models, despite me personally liking the writing tone more (less Anthropic slop) and finding that it doesn't block my cybersecurity prompts, recently reproduced SQLi with a proof of context so I could justify fixing it.
I'd say as Chinese models get better, whatever moat Anthropic and OpenAI have dissipates. Currently the main things keeping me with Anthropic are their performance (tokens/second) and the fact that their visualization abilities within the app are pretty good.
I’m sure the next models will only get better, when they’re released. Also super curious about what Moonshot will achieve and the full DeepSeek V4 Pro release!
> Their moat, especially OpenAI is funding and hardware resources. They gain train models 10x as large and also serve at large scale. That's it.
I’ve seen how much slower Kimi K3 can be and that part seems correct, their own GPU production still has ways to go and export restrictions definitely limit what they can do.
Not sure about the size part, if Kimi K3 achieves SOTA performance at 2.8T parameters, western models being >2x that size would be insanely bad in regards to efficiency. I bet they’re all within the same order of magnitude and below 10T and won’t really have a reason to go even that high for the foreseeable future.
As investors will start squeezing them for profitability, I suspect focusing more on efficiency will be commonplace.
> Not sure about the size part, if Kimi K3 achieves SOTA performance at 2.8T parameters, western models being >2x that size would be insanely bad in regards to efficiency. I bet they’re all within the same order of magnitude and below 10T and won’t really have a reason to go even that high for the foreseeable future.
They're a lot larger e.g. Fable. It is insanely bad. Do you know how much more resources "Western" companies have? Most in China don't have random GPUs to "play with" like every "frontier lab" employee does.
> As investors will start squeezing them for profitability, I suspect focusing more on efficiency will be commonplace.
They're born lucky though. Efficiency is "free". The next generation hardware e.g. Nvidia claims Blackwell -> Rubin is 10x efficiency (verified by Neoclouds apparently).
> It’s very clear that vast majority of the business do not generate additional value from incremental intelligence gain from these models.
It's been 2 months since Fable was released to the general, man. Nobody knows what's going on inside of these companies except the people at the coal face.
> but it’s nothing like Fable. It’s still strongly human-in-the-loop which is fine,
It's funny to see that Anthopic shills have been saying the exact same thing for the past two years now (and it was OpenAI fans before). It's amazing to see that Claude 3 Sonnet was "great" but now that even Qwen 9B is better than this version of Sonnet DeepSeek V4 is still not good enough despite being stronger than Opus 4.7 was.
> Let’s say you could buy an LLM that gets things right 98% of the time. But there’s another LLM that’s 100x the price but gets things right 99.9% of the time
If you think Fable makes 20 times fewer mistakes than DS4 you're delusional. It doesn't even do 20 fewer mistake than Gemma 4…
The discussion started about cost-vs-usability, and then you brought in "but humans, the best LLMs around, cost much more" into this discussion to make it a not cost-vs-usability discussion. Do you not find it a bit disingenuous?
Not really, no. My point is that a $100/mo LLM subscription is generating $5000/mo in value, so even a negligible difference in performance wipes out the cost savings completely.
Same reason it makes sense to assign a team of humans that cost $100k/mo to a product that brings in $5M/mo, rather than one human with 5 Claude Max subs.
> You use Fable 5 right? If that’s good enough for you now, why wouldn’t a Chinese model that’s as good as Fable 5 but at 10% the cost be good enough in 6 months?
This is why I quite like Kimi K3 - close to the same performance (definitely like Opus, approaching Fable), noticeably cheaper, generally good enough for me to daily drive. Only problem is that their official provider (on the Vivace plan) feels kinda slow, I'd say close to 2x slower than Opus on Max reasoning on average (probably more relatable than Fable).
SOTA models are exceedingly good at self-correction in the right harness especially in domains where things can be proven mathematically. Most people are just deploying Claude Code or Codex with default settings and rub the genie lamp expecting exceptional results. Garbage in, garbage out.
Cost is absolutely an issue here - my time is worth approximately $1000/day, so if a slightly worse model wastes one more hour of my time a day than the best model, it costs the company >$2k/mo. Fortunately my employer understands this well and encourages me to use the best models as much as I can.
That’s the thing, the difference is so small that you won’t be wasting an hour per day with a model that’s 95% as good. In fact, you’d notice zero difference most of the days and when you do, maybe it’s an extra 30 minutes.
And the price difference is far greater than $2k/month once the API cost is no longer subsidized.
Would your employer be paying an extra $20k/month to Anthropic if it can save you 2 hours a month?
Pareto optimal dominant vs a human for the same task, not an unreasonable framing but that assumes that it can actually do the task, which the op was arguing it couldn’t at all. Which, I suppose you could model as the utility of task completion % as being non linear. I have heard many people argue that the nature of work is messy and complicated and many things they do could not easily be emulated or automated. I do wonder how many of those activities are actually something that are connected to a companies ability to generate revenue or are just the messy interactions between people.
The article says otherwise. It opens with it isn’t genocide but is crimes against humanity.
The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
Like half of the world are now struggling with energy prices due to an unprovoked war started by U.S. and Israel and somehow an American billionaire is here criticizing China of being a threat to world peace.
There absolutely is minimal wage but is set by local governments, because different places have different cost of living.
There are better protections for work hours for salaried workers than America. Anything above 40 hours get paid at 1.5X and anything above 60 hours get paid at 2x.
For layoffs in China, you have to pay N+1 of months of salary in terms of severance. N being the number of years an employee has been there.
And talking about absurd work hours, SK and Japan aren't better than China.
So China overall has far better labor rights protection than the U.S.
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